Discussion:
[Zope3-dev] major packaging reorganization happening in 3.4 releases?
Martijn Faassen
2007-10-02 10:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi there,

Besides causing us a lot of problems here at the Grok sprint, I also
wonder why in the world are we doing major packaging reorganizations and
releasing them as minor 3.4.x releases? You'd think such a
reorganization would warrant a 3.5 release!

Regards,

Martijn
Martijn Faassen
2007-10-02 10:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martijn Faassen
Besides causing us a lot of problems here at the Grok sprint, I also
wonder why in the world are we doing major packaging reorganizations and
releasing them as minor 3.4.x releases? You'd think such a
reorganization would warrant a 3.5 release!
What doesn't help release managers is that the package reorganization
wasn't discussed in CHANGES.txt. This means that a release manager can
release what *they* think is a minor bugfix release but actually release
pretty disruptive changes.

Regards,

Martijn
Jim Fulton
2007-10-02 13:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martijn Faassen
Hi there,
Besides causing us a lot of problems here at the Grok sprint, I
also wonder why in the world are we doing major packaging
reorganizations and releasing them as minor 3.4.x releases? You'd
think such a reorganization would warrant a 3.5 release!
Agreed. Someone needs to sloooooow down. "Speed kills." deserves to
be added to the Zen of Python. (Actually, ZoP does have a variation
of that.)

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation
Jodok Batlogg
2007-10-02 19:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Fulton
Post by Martijn Faassen
Hi there,
Besides causing us a lot of problems here at the Grok sprint, I
also wonder why in the world are we doing major packaging
reorganizations and releasing them as minor 3.4.x releases? You'd
think such a reorganization would warrant a 3.5 release!
Agreed. Someone needs to sloooooow down. "Speed kills." deserves
to be added to the Zen of Python. (Actually, ZoP does have a
variation of that.)
+100.
that was the most unproductive week in lovely systems HQ ever.

jodok
Post by Jim Fulton
Jim
--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation
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Roger Ineichen
2007-10-02 20:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi all
Betreff: Re: [Zope3-dev] major packaging reorganization
happening in 3.4releases?
Post by Jim Fulton
Post by Martijn Faassen
Hi there,
Besides causing us a lot of problems here at the Grok
sprint, I also
Post by Jim Fulton
Post by Martijn Faassen
wonder why in the world are we doing major packaging
reorganizations
Post by Jim Fulton
Post by Martijn Faassen
and releasing them as minor 3.4.x releases? You'd think such a
reorganization would warrant a 3.5 release!
Sorry, I can't resist to answer the question with some
black humor:

I don't know, probably ask the release manager.
Ah, right, we do not have a releas manager anymore since
all developer have to release their eggs by itself.

I think this question/answer describes our problem
very well we have now.

Again, don't take it personal! I'm not pointing with
my finger to anybody. I just point my finger on the
situation we have right now.
Post by Jim Fulton
Agreed. Someone needs to sloooooow down. "Speed kills."
deserves to
Post by Jim Fulton
be added to the Zen of Python. (Actually, ZoP does have a
variation of
Post by Jim Fulton
that.)
+100.
that was the most unproductive week in lovely systems HQ ever.
I agree, but that's another topic...
...and probably I'm the person to blame.

But what does slowdown mean? Do we need to slowdown the
development or do we have to slowdown releasing eggs?

Or both?

Or do we need to slow down till we have a better development
process or tools? If so, can we make progress on that?


Regards
Roger Ineichen
jodok
Post by Jim Fulton
Jim
--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation
_______________________________________________
Zope3-dev mailing list
Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/batlogg.lists%
40lovelysystems.com
--
"Beautiful is better than ugly."
-- The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters
Jodok Batlogg, Lovely Systems
Schmelzh?tterstra?e 26a, 6850 Dornbirn, Austria
phone: +43 5572 908060, fax: +43 5572 908060-77
Philipp von Weitershausen
2007-10-02 22:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Ineichen
Post by Martijn Faassen
Post by Martijn Faassen
Hi there,
Besides causing us a lot of problems here at the Grok
sprint, I also
Post by Martijn Faassen
wonder why in the world are we doing major packaging
reorganizations
Post by Martijn Faassen
and releasing them as minor 3.4.x releases? You'd think such a
reorganization would warrant a 3.5 release!
Sorry, I can't resist to answer the question with some
I don't know, probably ask the release manager.
Ah, right, we do not have a releas manager anymore since
all developer have to release their eggs by itself.
Sorry, but blaming this on the eggification is just a cheap shot. We
*do* have a release manager for 3.4. His name is Christian Theune. He
wrote a wiki page [1] that specifically spells out instructions for
release 3.4.x. eggs. And the 3.4.x eggs are in *stabilization*, as the
wiki page accurately says. Stabilization does *NOT* imply moving stuff
around like you did. This is 3.5.x business.
Post by Roger Ineichen
Again, don't take it personal! I'm not pointing with
my finger to anybody. I just point my finger on the
situation we have right now.
I'm much in favour of the work you're doing (separating pure Python
components from their browser views). But with all due respect, Roger,
all you've been doing right now is pointing your finger at this
situation. I think a more constructive point of view would be looking at
how we can *improve* this situation. Let's hear it: what's *your*
suggestion?
Post by Roger Ineichen
But what does slowdown mean? Do we need to slowdown the
development or do we have to slowdown releasing eggs?
I *think* that Jim means slow down refactoring things and moving things
around. Releasing already *stable* stuff is perfectly ok.
Post by Roger Ineichen
Or do we need to slow down till we have a better development
process or tools? If so, can we make progress on that?
We should definitely discuss the development process. I've tried to
write down some rules [2]. Let's discuss those. Let's improve them.
Let's stick to them in the future.

The last two weeks have given us perfect examples of what NOT to do. I
think we can all agree on that. Most of could've been avoided if the
process had been followed. At this point, I don't really care much about
what the process is, as long as it's clear, reliable and easy to follow.



[1] http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/StabilizeEggPackages
[2]
http://svn.zope.org/*checkout*/Sandbox/philikon/foundation/maintaining-software.txt
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